Would it be dangerous to start a political thread?

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Welshineire
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PostWelshineire on Tue May 30, 2017 8:16 pm

First topic message reminder :

Start a political thread ? Given that football talk will be purely speculative at the moment.


Last edited by Rhys on Tue May 30, 2017 11:46 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Updated topic title -Rhys)

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PostWelshineire on Thu Jun 01, 2017 12:30 am

Unfortunately the NHS is trying to be all things to all people. There are services provided which I for one would not consider to be matters of life and death, and as such could be made into a solely private matter. The problem with paying for what you get out is that the most vulnerable people in society are the ones that are most likely to lose out, namely children And OAP's. I feel a nominal prescription charge of maybe €5 or €1 per item may help too, unless your over 70. It can work very well if there is a will, and without destroying its fundamental ethos.

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PostArkay Dubya on Thu Jun 01, 2017 12:41 am

Plenty of good points being made all round here and I've rewritten and deleted this post a thousand times trying to convey how I feel and think about the current campaigning and I will speak in general terms otherwise this could post could go on forever.

I'm the ultimate floating voter and I don't think I've voted for the same party twice. When the election was called, I genuinely had no clue as to which way I was going to go and as per usual, found myself asking the question - which is the lesser of the evils? However, as we've got closer to the day, I find myself backing swiftly away from the omnishambles that is the Tories. Don't get me wrong, every party has it's flaws and weaknesses but not only has May proved herself to be weak opportunist who shies away from difficult questions, other leaders and the public (a terrific portfolio for our supposed Chief Brexit negotiator!) the manifesto has been uninspiring and, more importantly, seemingly uncosted and keeping the well off more well off at the expense of everyone else. The negative campaigning and cosying up with Murdoch, Daily Mail et al to (as Red states) "hatchet" the other leaders has been pretty stomach churning and reminds me of the dirty campaigning of a few decades ago.

Brexit for me was a big deal (both professionally and personally) and while I do not dispute the result and despite my pro-Europe leanings, I am not adverse to change if it seems for the best and the majority of the country believe it is, so that's that, however, what I cannot forgive is the casualness with which Conservatives led us to this situation in the first place and the total lack of contingency and planning for a result that they so arrogantly thought was a foregone conclusion. Fundamentally, my objection to leaving was that there was no clear plan or strategy and there still isn't as far as I can tell, just a whole load of soundbites about "Brexit meaning Brexit", it being "red, white and blue" (so, French then?) and "no deal is better than a bad deal" (really? REALLY? No deal would be catastrophic on so many levels!) The idea that they offer a "strong and stable" government in the face of the massive turd of situation that they themselves put us in, is frankly, laughable. It's like me convincing you to let me drive your car, then crashing it and saying that I didn't arrange insurance because I didn't think I'd ever crash but nobody else can be trusted to wheel it to the garage and negotiate a repair price but, oh yeah, if I can't do that it'll just have to stay crashed but that's what you agreed to by giving me the keys, so that's what you'll get. Cheers!

I calculated the other day that of the 38 years I've been alive, 25 of those years have been under a Tory led government while the remaining 13 were under a Labour party who were so removed from their socialist roots it was difficult to spot where they ended and where the Conservatives began. No party or leader is ever perfect but right wing politics is done for me and has not on a personal level, served me, my family, my interests or (in my humble opinion) the country, at all well. As a rule, I generally find myself gravitating toward the Lib Dems but we're in a two way fight here and the Labour manifesto got me listening again. While I don't believe all of it could possibly be implemented or costed, among other intriguing policies, the simple prospect of having no tuition fees back for further education (an area I've worked in for many years and feel very strongly about) is just far too tempting a promise to turn my nose up at.

Short answer then - no fucking way Conservatives. Probably Labour, but ultimately I'm still deciding.

The caveat to this is, of course, that I live in a very safe Labour seat, so ultimately, my vote is unlikely to change squat - but, regardless, I definitely will vote!
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PostTDA on Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:05 am

@Welshineire wrote:Unfortunately the NHS is trying to be all things to all people. There are services provided which I for one would not consider to be matters of life and death, and as such could be made into a solely private matter. The problem with paying for what you get out is that the most vulnerable people in society are the ones that are most likely to lose out, namely  children And OAP's.  I feel a nominal prescription charge of maybe €5 or €1 per item may help too, unless your over 70. It can work very well if there is a will, and without destroying its fundamental ethos.

In France, there is a standard 65% rebate on doctors fees and prescription charges, which becomes 100% for those who have the private "complimentary" insurance. Chronic (long term) conditions and registered disabilities are covered 100% by the State system. Genuine deserving cases are also covered by the State. There are far fewer freeloaders, but the French would still say that there are too many.
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PostRhys on Thu Jun 01, 2017 3:41 am

@Arkay Dubya wrote:Plenty of good points being made all round here and I've rewritten and deleted this post a thousand times trying to convey how I feel and think about the current campaigning and I will speak in general terms otherwise this could post could go on forever.

I'm the ultimate floating voter and I don't think I've voted for the same party twice. When the election was called, I genuinely had no clue as to which way I was going to go and as per usual, found myself asking the question - which is the lesser of the evils? However, as we've got closer to the day, I find myself backing swiftly away from the omnishambles that is the Tories. Don't get me wrong, every party has it's flaws and weaknesses but not only has May proved herself to be weak opportunist who shies away from difficult questions, other leaders and the public (a terrific portfolio for our supposed Chief Brexit negotiator!) the manifesto has been uninspiring and, more importantly, seemingly uncosted and keeping the well off more well off at the expense of everyone else. The negative campaigning and cosying up with Murdoch, Daily Mail et al to (as Red states) "hatchet" the other leaders has been pretty stomach churning and reminds me of the dirty campaigning of a few decades ago.

Brexit for me was a big deal (both professionally and personally) and while I do not dispute the result and despite my pro-Europe leanings, I am not adverse to change if it seems for the best and the majority of the country believe it is, so that's that, however, what I cannot forgive is the casualness with which Conservatives led us to this situation in the first place and the total lack of contingency and planning for a result that they so arrogantly thought was a foregone conclusion. Fundamentally, my objection to leaving was that there was no clear plan or strategy and there still isn't as far as I can tell, just a whole load of soundbites about "Brexit meaning Brexit", it being "red, white and blue" (so, French then?) and "no deal is better than a bad deal" (really? REALLY? No deal would be catastrophic on so many levels!) The idea that they offer a "strong and stable" government in the face of the massive turd of situation that they themselves put us in, is frankly, laughable. It's like me convincing you to let me drive your car, then crashing it and saying that I didn't arrange insurance because I didn't think I'd ever crash but nobody else can be trusted to wheel it to the garage and negotiate a repair price but, oh yeah, if I can't do that it'll just have to stay crashed but that's what you agreed to by giving me the keys, so that's what you'll get. Cheers!

I calculated the other day that of the 38 years I've been alive, 25 of those years have been under a Tory led government while the remaining 13 were under a Labour party who were so removed from their socialist roots it was difficult to spot where they ended and where the Conservatives began. No party or leader is ever perfect but right wing politics is done for me and has not on a personal level, served me, my family, my interests or (in my humble opinion) the country, at all well. As a rule, I generally find myself gravitating toward the Lib Dems but we're in a two way fight here and the Labour manifesto got me listening again. While I don't believe all of it could possibly be implemented or costed, among other intriguing policies, the simple prospect of having no tuition fees back for further education (an area I've worked in for many years and feel very strongly about) is just far too tempting a promise to turn my nose up at.

Short answer then - no fucking way Conservatives. Probably Labour, but ultimately I'm still deciding.

The caveat to this is, of course, that I live in a very safe Labour seat, so ultimately, my vote is unlikely to change squat - but, regardless, I definitely will vote!

Great post Arkay...I wondered when you would 'weigh in'

Your thoughts are along the lines of what I thought you'd say...I agree largely with what you say ( I accidentally down voted the post!)

 I'm still a floating voter because I am worried about Corbyn's incredibly weak team... particularly Abbot, Thornberry and McDonnell...what a disaster! Although I'm convinced the civil service do a great deal of the work and we would ultimately be alright I think...if trump hasn't killed us all yet, I'm sure we would get by with this lot!

I'm also really angry at the arrogance and complacency of the Conservatives...they just thought they would walk this...and they no doubt will

One thing is certain, the election is not as clear cut as it once was...
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PostArkay Dubya on Thu Jun 01, 2017 4:19 am

Quite. There is very rarely a perfect leader with a perfect party, you just have to weigh up in your own mind what you're prepared to risk or live with. 

On a positive note, I very rarely feel comfortable enough to divulge my thoughts on serious issues. I'm s**t at debating (unless it's mass debating) as I'm more of a Devil's Advocate type but the beauty of this small but perfectly formed forum is, everyone can have their say and nobody is right or wrong - its just an exchange of opinions. Nice one Gents.
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PostSlimfrog's Son™ on Thu Jun 01, 2017 5:06 am

@Arkay Dubya wrote:Quite. There is very rarely a perfect leader with a perfect party, you just have to weigh up in your own mind what you're prepared to risk or live with. 

On a positive note, I very rarely feel comfortable enough to divulge my thoughts on serious issues. I'm s**t at debating (unless it's mass debating) as I'm more of a Devil's Advocate type but the beauty of this small but perfectly formed forum is, everyone can have their say and nobody is right or wrong - its just an exchange of opinions. Nice one Gents.

I have to say that I think everything you stand for is bollocks and I don't like you anymore based on your political views
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PostWelshineire on Thu Jun 01, 2017 5:20 am

I have to say that Mr Corbin has come across very well overall, maybe it has something to do with the fact that he is driving policies that he genuinely believes in and has stood for for many years. And I will echo that it is nice to discuss political opinions without is descending into unpleasantness.

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PostTDA on Thu Jun 01, 2017 6:27 am

I think the realism of the situation is that whatever policies are contained in a pre-Election manifesto, very few actually come to fruition.

At the end of the day, they are the bait to snare the voter. For years, the Libs and then the Lib-Dems put together catalogues of idealistic promises that were basically pie in the sky. They have finally been outed as the no-hope party that they always were, just hoping to gain enough political clout to justify their existence. We can be grateful to them for forming the coalition in 2010, when we really needed stability in the country, but the Party effectively sold its soul at that point and has paid the price.

Arkay puts his points well, but in my 63 years, we have had a Labour government for 24 of those and I am yet to be convinced that they can be trusted to handle the UK economy.

I blame them fairly and squarely for the financial meltdown 10 years ago, where those of us actually working in finance could see the writing on the wall years before the banking collapse. They just haven't got a clue how things operate at that level and were completely spineless when it came to standing up to the banks when proper regulation of the industry was so desperately needed.

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PostSlimfrog's Son™ on Thu Jun 01, 2017 7:09 am

@TDA wrote:I think the realism of the situation is that whatever policies are contained in a pre-Election manifesto, very few actually come to fruition.  

At the end of the day, they are the bait to snare the voter.  For years, the Libs and then the Lib-Dems put together catalogues of idealistic promises that were basically pie in the sky.  They have finally been outed as the no-hope party that they always were, just hoping to gain enough political clout to justify their existence.  We can be grateful to them for forming the coalition in 2010, when we really needed stability in the country, but the Party effectively sold its soul at that point and has paid the price.

Arkay puts his points well, but in my 63 years, we have had a Labour government for 24 of those and I am yet to be convinced that they can be trusted to handle the UK economy.  

I blame them fairly and squarely for the financial meltdown 10 years ago, where those of us actually working in finance could see the writing on the wall years before the banking collapse.  They just haven't got a clue how things operate at that level and were completely spineless when it came to standing up to the banks when proper regulation of the industry was so desperately needed.


I agree with you TDA, we are still paying for a profligate government that was in power in the early 2000's that spent without thinking about what impact 100% debt to GDP would do to the economy, whether selling off huge chunks of foreign currency and gold reserves was worthwhile and then launching into more wars than any I can think of. I'm not anti Labour as I would be interested to see David Miliband but as someone who served in HM Armed Forces, Corbyn's apologies for the IRA and Hamas and belief that you can talk sensibly to ISIL and the Al-Nusra front rather than use force really concerns me...although the Virgin trains incident was laughable as well
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PostSlimfrog's Son™ on Thu Jun 01, 2017 7:44 am

I've just seen Labour's promise to create a £10 an hour living wage. I'd rather that they lessen inflation than choose an easier option and just up the living wage
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PostTans Tache on Thu Jun 01, 2017 4:37 pm

I don't know much about politics (or anything else for that matter) but apparently it won't be much as a landslide as the tories were expecting? Is that true? Corbyn came across well yesterday?? May was a no show on question time?

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PostTDA on Thu Jun 01, 2017 6:01 pm

I don't like these TV debates. An unwelcome American innovation. There is very little of substance actually "discussed". It's more about selling the personality of the participants, which, to me, is of secondary importance.
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PostArkay Dubya on Thu Jun 01, 2017 6:04 pm

It seems likely that the Conservatives will still win despite running one of the worst election campaigns ever, but they might not get the majority they were hoping for. 

I agree with TDA about the value of TV debates but May refusing to do them really quite appalling - its kinda part of the job. Farron summed that up perfectly!

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PostTDA on Thu Jun 01, 2017 6:17 pm

@Arkay Dubya wrote:It seems likely that the Conservatives will still win despite running one of the worst election campaigns ever, but they might not get the majority they were hoping for. 

I agree with TDA about the value of TV debates but May refusing to do them really quite appalling - its kinda part of the job. Farron summed that up perfectly!


Can't agree with you on this point Arkay.  I think she is right to stand her ground to not take part in what would be intended to be calculated character assassination and has no relevance to how well she does her job as Prime Minister.  For too many talking shops these days.  The British people just love confrontation ..... listen to conversations in your local any night of the week.
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PostArkay Dubya on Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:40 pm

We'll have to agree to disagree on this. I don't doubt that was the agenda but not turning up and sending someone to take the flak for you is no way to counteract the argument - that's like taking your ball home. Although most of us on here have taken time and effort to engage with the manifestos and look behind the headlines, for a significant portion of the population the TV debates are the most accessible part of politics and may even be the only exposure they get to a party's policies. Refusing to do them does her and her party no favours at all regardless of whether she likes them or wants to do it or not, it is part and parcel of modern politics.

I do find them insufferable point-scoring soundbite fests but I also despise "Great British Cake Off", "I'm An Attention Seeking Celebrity...", "Karaoke Factor", "The Kardashishits" and all programs of their ilk but it seems that I am in the minority and that a plenty of people get a lot of worth from them and it "may" just come back to haunt her.
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